You spend a lot of your time looking at worker engagement. Why are so many of us obsessed with getting the most impressive job title?

Well, there is a natural inclination to care what other people think of us, and oftentimes titles are a way for us to prove our worth. When you look at what motivates people, like mission or purpose of the company or the people you work with or having flexibility, even compensation, status is not often one of the top things. Even though at first glance it feels tempting to go for the big title, it’s typically not in the set of things that most motivate people. 

So how do you find the right job for you? What are you looking for?

A lot of times people will come to me with these big-title jobs they want to have. A lot of times I ask them not only about what motivates them, but also about the day-to-day work life they want to have, and if that matches the big-title job they want. Sometimes a fancy title can sound great. But then when you actually go to work to do the job, it turns out you hate what the job involves. Even CEO is a good example! Many people think they wanna be a CEO of something. And I tell them, ‘Do you know what a CEO of an actual startup actually does?’ A lot of our days are spent fundraising and selling. Many people who are builders think they want this job, but actually I think they would hate it. 

How do you figure out what day-to-day work you may want to do?

I think of this idea originally developed by Gallup that people are happiest and most successful when they do the things that come naturally to them and that bring them joy and energy, and the difference between talent and skills, [with] talent being the things that come easily to you. I sometimes ask people to think about themselves as a child, or ask their friends or family what they were like. The things that bring us joy come out early in life. So for instance, people who love to plan out projects and how to get things done who might be great at that today as project managers were planning their family vacations… So many of these things are things we can look back in our early lives and see ourselves doing. Ideally people can get into jobs where that kind of behavior that came naturally to them is part of their job.

It sounds like at the core of this is matching the behavior, whether “natural” or new, to the job. Can you share an example of when you saw that learning come into action?

I like to do this thing where you think about where you might wanna do 10 years from now, and then look at the things, skills and experiences that might be required for you to get there. If you don’t know the answer, you can ask ChatGPT or friends, etc. But also think about what you can do both inside and outside your current company to get there. Right? Ask your manager, and your own self-driven learning that can help you get towards that longer-term career goal. I once worked with an HR manager who really wanted to become a CHRO, and she realized that one of the skills she needed was public speaking and getting more comfortable speaking in front of audiences. So we thought about ways to do that inside of work and we gave her some opportunities for that. But she also decided to take a job as a very part-time yoga teacher on the side that would force her to be in front of people and be the one at the front of the room talking all the time.

So I think the other thing that is important for people to remember is: Even though many things may feel out of their control inside companies they work for, there’s still a lot of things in our own circle of control that we can do that are beyond just corporate learning.